What motivates God?

I have been involved in some interesting discussions over at Jonathan Brink’s website, as well as at Rick Ianniello’s. I have also been losing sleep over the thoughts – trying to reconcile what I am hearing, with what I see in the Word. Questions like: Is love the base attribute of God? Does love motivate God to do all that He does? Do we have to then redefine things like judgement, and wrath, and hell?

My first thought was to look to the Bible, to show that there is no reason to suppose that love is God’s “base” attribute. But, in mulling these things over, I believe that what is actually the heart of the issue we have been discussing, is not WHO God is (important as that is), but WHAT motivates Him. And, I just do not see Scripture that God is primarily motivated by a love for mankind, or His creation. God is ultimately motivated by wanting all of creation to display His glory. He does what He does for His glory.

Jonathan Edwards and John Piper opened my eyes to this in God’s Passion for His Glory. The most life-altering book I have read, save the Bible. Here is what Edwards has to say:

God is glorified within Himself these two ways: 1. By appearing… to Himself in His own perfect idea [of Himself], or in His Son, who is the brightness of His glory. 2. By enjoying and delighting in Himself, by flowing forth in infinite… delight towards Himself, or in His Holy Spirit… So God glorifies himself toward the creatures also in two ways: 1. By appearing to… their understanding. 2. In communicating Himself to their hearts, and in their rejoicing and delighting in, and enjoying, the manifestations which He makes of Himself… God is glorified not only by His glory’s being seen, but by its being rejoice in. when those that see it delight in it, God is more glorified than if they only see it. His glory is then received by the whole soul, both by the understanding and by the heart. God made the world that He might communicate, and the creature receive, His glory; and that it might [be] received both by the mind and heart. He that testifies his idea of God’s glory [doesn’t] glorify God so much as he that testifies also his approbation of it and his delight in it.

It is amazing, how absolutely full the Bible is of this idea. Whether it is specifically referring to God’s glory, or to the idea of it (by using terms such as “for My namesake”), God receiving praise and glory and honor is the central theme of the Bible. God has spared Isreal at times, not for their sake, but for His glory (ie. Exekial 36:22) Ezekial is replete with the idea that God will act, that “they may know that I am the Lord” (about 30 times) Romans 9 is a significant passage on this. Regarding Pharaoh, and why God chose to raise him up as a vessel of wrath: “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (verse 17)

It is a really hard concept initially to wrap our head around. We have been taught that WE are the center of His universe. We have been shown verse after verse that talks about His love for us. Which is, of course, true, but there is context for that as well… We believe that God cannot possibly love God most – that would be narcissistic. And yet, could God be holy, if He placed infinite worth on anything but that which is infinitely valuable?? Namely Himself?


80 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Rick
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 09:51:52

    I probably goes without saying but “well done” … of course it would be fair to accuse me of thinking that because I wholeheartedly agree with you.

    Regardless, keep it up.


  2. Nicole
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 10:29:50

    Thanks Rick!


  3. raquelamisto
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 10:47:38

    What encourages me to agree with you is the knowledge that I’m an idiot. If God hung His hat on all of us idiots… He’d be lonely and we’d still be idiots.

    I pray that some day I will love God as much as He deserves… not because of anything that He has done, but for the simple fact that He is God.

    (I’m lovin’ your last two sentences, by the way)


  4. Nicole
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 13:10:52

    I think too, of instances where someone in the Bible faces God in heaven (Isaiah, John), and what I do not seeing them doing is running and hugging Jesus, but bowing down in fear. Isaiah was terrified, and cried woe is me! John tried to worship and bow to every angel he ran in to… the splendor and majesty of heaven, nevermind that of the God who occupies it, is overwhelming. Like Piper says, no one goes to the Grand Canyon to feel big about themselves….


  5. raquelamisto
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 13:58:55

    was that a quote back at me? hehe.

    I know that I get caught up in the whole I-deserve-(fill in the blank here) rant. It’s so easy to slip out of out servant-hood (by this I mean we don’t deserve squat) and into spoiled-childhood (by this I mean we THINK we deserve it all).

    arg. our thorn appears to be sin (aka ourselves), eh?


  6. Nicole
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 14:28:14

    silly girl. Piper didn’t write about you. 🙂

    It’s just human nature. And I think it is what is so wrong about a gospel where man is at the center of all God does – I think it is impossible to elevate man without diminishing God – kind of like when you have two things on a scale… The higher we think of ourselves (in our own eyes, in God’s eyes) the less we truly see His magnificence.


  7. raquelamisto
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 14:52:00

    okay… but just so we’re clear, you’re quoting my quote of Piper, right? (now I feel like an imbecile.)

    and I love the scale analogy that you used. well done.


  8. khyalking
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 15:12:29

    just read,



  9. Laurel Esser
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 15:36:31

    I have a really hard time coming up with things to say when I totally agree – good post (how was that?)


  10. Paul Maurice Martin
    Jun 13, 2008 @ 18:51:48

    I think these kinds of conundrums come about from objectifying God as a kind of Object among objects – the greatest Being, but still, a Being among beings that relates to finite beings in pretty much the same way that finite beings, particularly human beings, relate to each other and themselves.


  11. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 01:57:42

    I found it interesting that the central question you asked at the end was whether or not God “loves” himself. You didn’t pick anything else. You picked love.

    And what I would offer is that it would be easy for God to love God. He’s what is good. But the brilliance of His love is found in that He loves us, the supposedly unlovable. It’s what makes love so profound in our lives, when loves shows up unexpectedly for us who don’t deserve it. That is His glory.

    And when we love, we also reveal and participate in His glory.


  12. Rick
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 06:51:54

    Jonathan – how about this, the brilliance of God is that He was sovereign enough to cause you to see love?

    Sorry man, you keep trying to force fit something that ain’t there.


  13. Nicole
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 09:08:12

    My opening, and closing framework, was a response to what you have been talking about Jonathan. So, I did bring it back to love, as I was hoping you could understand that I do not see in the Bible that God’s thinking revolves around us. You simply make a quick dismissal of “of course God loves Himself” and go on to His love for us.

    God would not be any less glorious if He left the entire human race to die in their trespasses and sins. He would not be any less glorious if He never had sent His Son. The work of Christ on the cross is the central focus in history – but none of the focus should be about us. How amazing is He to have come! To accept forever to be fully God and fully man! It is not about me…

    Apart from looking at me cleansed in the blood of Jesus, God sees me as an enemy. (James 4:4) There is nothing in me that is good, or worthy of His delight…. I think you have removed the component of salvation, whereby God can even look on us in love.

    Your definition of glory is more accurately a definition of grace.

    I do not see in Scripture that we participate in His glory?
    “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
    for how should my name be profaned?
    My glory I will not give to another.” Isaiah 48:11

    Can you not see how glorious, and holy and beautiful and awesome He is – apart from how it benefits man??


  14. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 10:55:35

    Nicole, His glory is a presupposition for me. But we focus on humanity because WE are the problem that God is working towards restoring.

    Also – Romans 8:17
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


  15. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 10:59:43

    Romans 8:18 – I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

    Romans 9:4 – the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

    1 Corinthians 2:7 – No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

    1 Corinthians 11:7 – A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

    2 Corinthians 3:18 – And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    The idea that we participate in His glory is all over Scripture.


  16. Nicole
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 11:15:32

    Fair enough – I found one, in Ephesians I think, after I had finished my comment. And was trying to find one that talks about partakers of the divine glory. And, Christ refers to it I think it His high priestly prayer in John 17. So, there is definately some way in which we are the glory of God…

    I believe though, that His glory should not be a presupposition, but THE focus of our lives “For whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.”


  17. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 12:43:58

    Nicole, I would offer that we do that through love.


  18. Becoming Me
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 21:21:51

    Wow. Amazing post. No more to say but that.


  19. Nicole
    Jun 14, 2008 @ 22:24:13

    Thank you, Becoming Me!

    Jonathan… I think what frustrates me most about your constant push for love is that it is so key to all your thinking, that you actually have to redefine other things to keep it central. You have redefined glory. And wrath. And judgement. You redefine conversion. And salvation…. It comes to the point where you have to force Scripture to say what you want it to say, rather than being open to what it actually says.

    I can not help but go to Romans 9, because I think it such a clear text on God’s sovereignty. Vessels of mercy, vessels of wrath. Jacob I LOVED, Esau I HATED.

    What does love actually look like, to you?


  20. Jenn
    Jun 15, 2008 @ 10:33:01

    I’ve read over this a couple of times over the past few days (ah, the joys of reading great discussion! 🙂 ) and now I have a question to add to this discussion. John 3:16 says that “God so LOVED the world.” It doesn’t say out of His great sovereignty but out of him so loving us that he gave his only son. So how does that fit into your frame of thinking, Nic? To clarify, I am in no way saying that I don’t think that we serve the most sovereign God but there are many places in scripture that refer to His love for us.


  21. Nicole
    Jun 15, 2008 @ 16:32:45

    I think Jenn, that love is part of the equation, but not the whole. It is like when my kids ask me to play in the sprinkler, and I say “not today, it’s raining.” I do not need to tell them it is also only 8 degrees out, the hose is broken, and I have a headache such that I simply can not watch them out the window. John 3:16 is not giving an exclusive reason for why Christ came. I also believe, that while love is significant, it is NOT the ultimate end for which God created the universe. John Piper has a beautiful little book, called Fifty Reasons why Christ Came to Die, that deals quite well with this… It is actually available free on his website: http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_pojc/bpojc_all.pdf

    A couple of my favourite paragraphs (pg29):
    “I have heard it said, “God didn’t die for frogs. So He was responding to our value as humans.” This turns grace on its head. We are WORSE off than frogs. They have not sinned. They have not rebelled and treated God with the contempt of being inconsequential in their lives. God did not have to die for frogs. They aren’t bad enough. We are. Our debt is so great, only a divine sacrifice could pay it.

    There is only one explanation for God’s sacrifice for us. It is not us. It is “the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7) It is all free. It is not a response to our worth. It is the overflow of His infinite worth. IN FACT, THAT IS WHAT DIVINE LOVE IS IN THE END: A PASSION TO ENTHRALL UNDESERVING SINNERS, AT GREAT COST, WITH WHAT WILL MAKE US SUPREMELY HAPPY FOREVER, NAMELY, HIS INFINITE BEAUTY.”

    God does not love us so much, because we are so valuable. He loves us, that we might be eternally blessed with the joys of being in His glorious presence forever. He loves us enough to give us Himself.

    I do not see God’s glory as something to put against His love for us. It is not like that for me, and hope it does not come across that way…


  22. Rick
    Jun 15, 2008 @ 17:49:26

    Nicole – thanks for the book reference. Your reply is excellent and the timing for the pdf is great (I have some vacation next week).

    This on-going conversation has been very interesting to me. I have experience with the part of our family that is tied up in the religion of rules, organization, etc.. I have experience with some that are tied up in the religion of liberty (i.e., anything goes), etc.. This is new for me, i.e., a redefining of (or narrowing) of who God is. The passion and number of folks in that camp has surprised me. It’s interesting.

    I have felt a great deal anxiety over this and as I wrestle over why I find I still truly feel connected with those that are doing this but I feel almost a sense of a call to war to defend the nature of God (as if He really needed me to do that).

    I probably didn’t say what I was thinking well. Bottom line, this issue is a new one to me and I feel quite bothered by it.


  23. Nicole
    Jun 15, 2008 @ 19:39:11

    Thank you for your candid response Rick… I think any book I would have to recommend would be by John Piper (incidentally, I named my daughter after him – not John, but Piper 🙂 )

    Piper is a firm believer in making his resources available to as many as want them – so most of his books are on the website for free. http://www.desiringgod.org – under resources, then books.

    “Desiring God”, and especially “God’s Passion for His Glory” deal with this. One of my favorite books is “Suffering and the Sovereignty of God”… “The Misery of Job and the Mercy of God” is a beautiful poem on God’s sovereignty, as seen in Job’s life…

    Honestly, my husband read “God’s Passion for His Glory” when we were dating almost ten years ago. And in between the time that he read it, and I did (last May) it drove me CRAZY that Brad was always emphasizing God’s glory. I thought he was missing the whole love point as well… And then I read the book. And, what seemed to be said over and over in Scripture, to the point I think I mentally skimmed it, was God saying “for my name sake” or “for my glory”. It’s beautiful. And Edwards gloried in it. And so does Piper. There is nothing more humbling, more thrilling, than standing in the presence of such an amazing, wondrous God.

    As to the other comment – legalism and liberalism – Mark Driscoll has a wonderful, sometimes comical message that deals great with that – called “The Weaker Christian” on podcast – dated 02/07/2006. He deals with the fact that the Bible teaches that on some issues, what is sin for you is not sin for me. Certainly, getting drunk is always a sin – but maybe having a beer for me is okay, but not for you, because you are a recovering alcoholic. My family and I were discussing this today – my mom feels convicted any time she watches movies, and I felt I should not have put down my books with substance to devour a novel for three days. Neither of those are sins, neither of us would tell someone “you shouldn’t read novels, or watch movies” – but those are things the Holy Spirit has convicted us of…

    As to the third point. God does not need defending, certainly. This is something my husband and I have talked about in depth – how much do you say, when you know that false doctrines are florishing? I think the answer is different for everyone – for him, it is a more passive approach than it is for me. I fear for those who are getting swept up in new doctrines, and I would seek to build up the body, that we might not be tossed to and fro. We can not properly worship God, unless we know Him….

    Ephesians 4:12-15 – “equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ”


  24. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 00:43:29

    Nicole, you said, “I think what frustrates me most about your constant push for love is that it is so key to all your thinking” Yep, I think that about sums it up. I accept that you don’t/can’t see it that way. No worries.

    I would also say that I fundamentally disagree with the quote you have above from Piper. It’s his perspective and I respect that you hold his, where I do not.


  25. Nicole
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 06:39:10

    What about the quote did you disagree with? That we are worse than frogs? That God created us to love Him and delight in Him?

    To focus on being loved by God is to focus most on being made much of… Celebrities can bask in the joys of being loved and adored and admired by fans, without ever knowing the people that love them… I think we do God a greater honor by delighting in Him than by basking in the warmth of being loved. Love is the gift, not the Giver….


  26. Jonathan Brink
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 11:17:32

    Nicole, it looks as if you have already come to a conclusion for me.


  27. Nicole
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 11:48:15

    I did not intend to – sorry if it came off that way.

    “It’s what makes love so profound in our lives, when love shows up unexpectedly for us who don’t deserve it. That is His glory.”

    I guess I am trying to summarize and respond to what I hear you saying – which is that God’s glory is loving us. And my response to that is, I just don’t see that definition of glory in the Bible. Nor, do I see God’s love for us as the center either. It takes the focus off of Him, and puts it on to us. Which is man centered theology.

    If we are all loved equally by God, who does the Holy Spirit impart?


  28. unorthodoxology
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 12:35:45

    “I think we do God a greater honor by delighting in Him than by basking in the warmth of being loved.”

    Both of these thoughts is human-centered. If we delight in God, we are taking great pleasure in God, correct? If we bask in the warmth of God, we are taking great pleasure in God.

    For me, I do not think the love of God is something that is warm or something that is to basked in languidly. The love of God is searing, painful, often cold and dark, as it purifies. The love of God reveals us for the people we are. The love of God prods us to be the people God intends us to be. The love of God strikes us dumb in awe.

    Also, I believe, that as the Bible says, that all creation is groaning for redemption. So perhaps the frogs need God just as much as humans do. Or, more biblically, perhaps God cares for them just as much as God cares for humans.


  29. Nicole
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 13:14:36

    I can not help but quote Piper – God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him. I do feel most joyful when I am in right communion with God – but not because I am thinking about me, but am thinking about Him. Are you focused on yourself when you are delighting in your child, even when their sweet smell and soft toes make you want to cry and sing all at once?

    I would recommend the book Desiring God. We are commanded to delight ourselves in the Lord. (Psalm 37:4 for example) That is not a focus on me, but on Him.

    Jesus talked about how we mean more to Him than the animals do… “So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.” Frogs, and sparrows are not in need of salvation. Salvation is something for sinful man, something that even the angels long to look into. (1 Peter 1:12)


  30. raquelamisto
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 14:15:27

    I gotta tell ya that that God you’re describing sounds really distant and mean. I’m sure that there is certainly some measure from us reacting to His distance from us in a way that you described… but wow… Searing, cold, dark, painful?
    I think more along the lines of, beautiful, humbling, awe inspiring immensity, holy, perfect, genuine, and just amazing. I’m curious as to how you came to that conclusion of who God is?


  31. unorthodoxology
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 16:52:15

    My understanding of God comes from people like St. John of the Cross’s Dark Night of the Soul, St. Teresa of Avila, the experience of Isaiah, Jonah, Judas, Thomas, Good Friday, Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus on the cross, to name a few.

    Not a shameless plug, but I think this post best explains where I’m coming from: (please read the whole post for coherency, but I’ve excerpted a couple of lines as well)


    “The love of God is what keeps you up at night, what plunges you into the darkness to reveal light. What majesty it is to be Love.

    “Perhaps the fire of hell is a metaphor for the experience of being in the presence of God. Do we not describe this as an all-consuming fire? Did not Isaiah have his tongue singed with the divine coal to speak the message of the God of love?

    Love is a great purifier. It does not assuage our guilt. It reveals the selfishness beneath it. It does not gives us a pass to do whatever we like. It shows us that we already live this way.”


  32. Nicole
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 19:31:13

    Are those mostly gnostic gospels?

    I had read your blog this afternoon….

    Upon looking at even St John though, you are talking mysticism, and Roman Catholisism, and you are combining that with Gnostic gospels… what place does the Bible have with those books? Even the little bit I read on the Dark Night of the Soul would indicate where you feel God’s love is dark and painful and searing. I just do not see biblical warrant for pergatory, or a season of darkness where one cannot seem to connect with God in prayer – not in the way he means…

    Is the Bible then, just another book with these ones? How does one know truth? What is the point in believing the Bible at all? Jesus came to fulfill prophesies of the OT – He did not even give up His spirit on the cross until they were all fulfilled. He held Scripture in high regard. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. We can not accept some of the Word, and not all of it. Nor re-write it…

    “A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg – or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.” C.S. Lewis


  33. unorthodoxology
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 21:19:12

    What in the world? Gnostic gospels?!?!? Because I identify with Thomas and Judas? No, I’m looking at the same four gospels you are. I haven’t read the noncanonical gospels. You are assuming too much about me.

    Is Roman Catholicism a bad thing? I have a hard time with that, considering without that tradition we probably wouldn’t have any surviving Bibles and all.

    Not talking about purgatory, either. I’m talking about the here and now experience of the love of God. I do pray you don’t have a season of darkness, but it is not something that is controllable. Sometimes it just happens.

    I respect C.S. Lewis a great deal. I just happen to think he was wrong.


  34. unorthodoxology
    Jun 16, 2008 @ 21:53:31

    Sorry if that came across as harsh. I was just really taken aback by your association of me with gnostic gospels from what I guess is my identification with judas and thomas. I can see where you might have inferred that, but it just shows how someone can color a text by their own assumptions of the writer and the text itself.

    I would humbly suggest you read the whole of the Dark Night of the Soul before criticizing it. I understand there is a lot of hesitancy and distrust of any kind of mysticism. I just think that criticizing something based on a little bit of reading is an unfair reading. In fact, a lot of what the Dark Night deals with is a relationships of lovers, not unlike the Song of Songs.

    I’ll try different terminology. Can we use the metaphor of a refining fire as the experience of God? This is the same as talking about searing and painful love of God.

    I think more important than believing the Bible is following it, personally. I understand the Bible to be a deep, poignant, poetic, overwhelmingly authoritative story about a people’s experiences with God and God’s experiences with those people.

    Certainly, Jesus held Scripture in high regard. But he held a life lived in the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, in higher regard.

    I certainly agree. One cannot accept part of the Bible and not all of it. I accept the two creation stories. The contradictions. The confusing parts. The parts that don’t make sense. The parts I don’t agree with. I accept them because it doesn’t detract from the meaning and message and purpose of the Bible.

    I don’t have to come up with complex explanations for simple discrepancies, because God is so much bigger than the words on a page.

    I doubt we will agree with each other on this topic.

    But isn’t the conversation fun? 🙂


  35. Nicole
    Jun 17, 2008 @ 06:54:27

    Well, that was not what I expected. I did understand what you had said about Thomas and Judas to mean their gospels, and not their appearances in the Bible. Sorry about that….

    As to the rest… I will have to write later I am afraid – I have to get to Bible study this morning. The conversation IS fun. I am always amazed at how much my own faith is grown in times of discussions – as I am pushed in to the Word. Knowing what you believe, and being able to explain it are two VERY different things sometimes.


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  37. Nicole
    Jun 23, 2008 @ 06:34:34

    And, this is why I can not ever leave a comment that I need to comment later… I half-forgot about this. Man… need to get organised…

    Why say you identify with Judas? I have never heard anyone say that before… interesting.

    Is Catholisism a bad thing? That’s a whole new can-o’-worms. I think that there are certainly Catholics who love the Lord, but pergatory, and the emphasis on Mary and taking the sacraments as the literal blood and body of Christ are things I just do not see in the Bible. It seems very works based.

    What about the Lewis quote did you disagree with?

    I have had a season of darkness – self inflicted. Resolved with repentance. I suppose I should not comment further on Dark Night of the Soul – as I have not read it…. I can say that if there is mysticism involved, I have no safe interest in it…

    I believe that one can not follow the Bible well, without knowing the Bible well. I believe that Christ came to fulfill the law – He had to keep it perfectly in order to be a sufficient sacrifice. By what do you mean “the spirit of the law”?


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