I originally posted this comment over at Jeromy’s page - but thought the discussion that is extending from it might take place better over here – please cut and paste DoubtingThomas….
If I thought salvation had anything to do with me, I would be lost Matt. I would be very uncertain. But, I believe that I can only love Him because He first loved me. I believe that He pursues All of His sheep, and that He will not lose any. I believe that, if He chose me before the foundations of the world – then I can stand firm in the fact that the Holy Spirit, who first opened my eyes to see – who awakened my heart out of spiritual darkness… that He would confirm within my soul that I was, in fact, looking at Christ in the flesh…It is only a faith rooted in His work that can make me confident – because the human, fleshy part of me knows that my rebellious soul would want nothing to do with Him, apart from what He opens my eyes to desire. It is a faith in God, and nothing else… does that make sense? “He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.””
January 14, 2008 at 9:31 pm
My response:
Some thoughts – as per our discussion on mendingshift.wordpress.com ….
Some of the comments only made sense in light of the discussion – ie. seeing Christ in the flesh… we had been discussing what we would do, upon seeing Him, if He were to return in our lifetime. Would I also treat Him as a heretic? To which I said no – Because of what He is doing in me…. I think that hope in Christ is better placed than hope in myself. I believe that, not in the fingers-crossed sense – but in the eagerly anticipating sense. You want to make logical, and rational, things that cannot be explained. I can not Prove God’s existence in my life to you.
I think there is a ton of back and forthness, if we want to get into things like the flood. I think there are men who have addressed these things at length, better than I can. (ie. http://www.answersincreation.org/noahark.htm ) I assume you may call this a cop out – I quite simply don’t have the time, nor the necessity, to do all the researching myself – but trust you can find some of the answers there from more credible sources.
To some of the statements I made – I was mostly quoting, to the best of my recollection, some verses from Scripture –
me: “I can only love Him because He first loved me.”
you: Huh? Please explain what in the world this is supposed to mean.
answer: 1 John 4:19 – “We love Him because He first loved us.”
me: He (God) pursues All of His sheep, and that He will not lose any.
you: Can you please define ‘sheep’ for me. I have to assume you mean Christians and not simply humanity. If so, then your statement suggests that your God would never allow a Christian to ever become anything but. Obvious this is not true. If, instead, ‘sheep’ refers more to the all inclusive humanity then, again, this is obviously an untrue statement.
answer: John 6:39 – “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
I take “sheep” to mean the elect – those God has chosen for salvation. I do mean Christians. I do believe that, as the above verse states, Jesus will not lose any of His sheep (Christians). I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there are those set aside, for salvation (forgiveness of sins, heaven, etc) from before the time when God created the world (see also Ephesians 1:4 for example)
This ties in with “I love Him, because He loved me.” I believe God works, in a saving way, in the hearts of His children/elect/Christians – before they do anything to reach out and believe in return. I believe that all of mankind is dead in his sins – that is, he has no ability to reach out to God, nor any desire to, apart from God creating that desire in him.
Spiritual darkness is a term for anyone who does not know God, in a saving sense. The Bible talks alot about eyes being blind and hearts being hardened. Romans especially talks about the state of man, before the Lord intervenes in his life. I was not saved out of any glamorous sinful lifestyle – merely the daily sort.
And – I apologize for the “empty, fanciful, prosaic, unoriginal, lyrical, nonsensical phrases.” I was talking with other believers, and never thought about the fact that there are others reading it – who don’t get it…. Thank you for asking for clarification.
I am intrigued – you know ALOT of the scary passages – ask 1000 Christians who Jephthah is, and see if any remember – but you did not realise I was pretty much quoting the Bible on Jeromy’s blog… is that intentional? Are you looking for the worst? Do you actually want answers, or are you seeking to create doubt in others? Also find the 426 reference an interesting combo with the DoubtingThomas…
I don’t believe that the God I present is the same one that many will within the Christian church. And, naturally, we all think we are right…. I firmly believe that – good or bad – God is doing all for His glory (Romans 9 again). I also believe, as Laurel stated – that we do not deserve any more than the angels got – who, though we were created lower than, still received the gift of redemption that they do not have a chance at.
You want God to be responsible for man’s sin. For not creating a way out for everyone. You see Him, perhaps, as evil for allowing evil…. You have a premise “God should be like…..” and go out from there…..
I don’t know the best place to continue this – it will get lost here on the main page. If you post on my blog – or start a new thread, I’d be happy to keep going… Sorry, for any of the explanations that make no sense – please ask for further clarification, if you need it!